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Welcome to NerdWallet’s Smart Money podcast, where we answer your real-world money questions.
This week’s episode kicks off our Nerdy Deep Dive into the price of parenthood.
Check out this episode on either of these platforms:
Ever wonder how much it costs to become a parent today? In this month’s nerdy deep dive, we dig into different ways to become a parent — and what it can cost to bring one of those adorable bundles of joy home. Deciding to grow a family is an emotional journey and one that is innately personal, but this series aims to shed light on what is not talked about, answer questions we’ve all been wondering and let listeners know what options they have if they need family-building assistance.
To bring this all home, our very own Nerd Ronita Choudhuri-Wade will be taking host Sean Pyles through interviews with real people and financial advisors to understand the emotional and financial costs and benefits of becoming a parent. Ronita herself will kick off the first episode by talking about her and her husband’s current journey of trying for a kid the old-school way. There’s a lot more patience required than she expected. Ronita will also chat with a certified financial planner and parent, Julia Colantuono, about how the way money was talked about in our childhoods affects how we think about it as adults, and the costs to prepare for when raising children. The rest of the series will look at going through adoption for an LGBTQ+ couple, one woman’s journey of trying to get insurance to cover the cost of egg freezing and a new mom’s unique story with IVF.
More about parenthood and budgeting on NerdWallet:
Sean Pyles: Think you're ready for kids, like having them? Well, while those little bundles of joy will hopefully bring you a lifetime of love and affection, they don't come without a price tag these days from the moment you decide you want them.
Julia Colantuono: Before you dive into the numbers, just think about what really matters to you. How will you feel if the money part of it makes the decision for you? Think about that. I find that a lot of people will use money as an excuse to cover up what they might really want deep down.
Sean Pyles: Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. I'm Sean Pyles.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: And I'm Ronita Choudhuri-Wade.
Sean Pyles: This episode kicks off our nerdy deep dive into the cost of parenthood. Yes, those wee little tikes will have an extensive impact on your bottom line. In this series, we're going to give you a sense of exactly how much it costs to have a child.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Yeah, and we're going to look at some of the options you have when deciding to have kids, from the old school way to adoption, egg freezing and in vitro fertilization, or IVF.
Sean Pyles: And, Ronita, I know that all of those options don't come cheap.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: No, they certainly do not. Even for a traditional childbirth, you're probably paying a few thousand dollars in insurance deductibles and other payments. And the other options I mentioned can run into the tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes six figures if you're doing multiple rounds of IVF. So we're going to take listeners through those options and give them a sense of what might be ahead for them as they choose to have a child.
Sean Pyles: All right. Well, listener, we want to hear from you, too. We'd love to hear your stories around the decision to have a kid, especially around your finances. Leave us a voicemail or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD, or email a voice memo to [email protected].
Well, Ronita, usually this is the place in the show where I ask our guest host why we're doing a series on a certain topic, and I am going to ask that of you as well. But first, we have another very special guest joining us for this conversation, your husband, Jeremy. Welcome to Smart Money.
Jeremy Wade: Hi. Great to be here.
Sean Pyles: So Ronita, do you want to give us the short answer for why we are doing this series on parenting?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Sure. It's really because Jeremy and I are thinking about having a kid, so there's a bit of self-interest in this, definitely.
Sean Pyles: Yes. But, hey, I mean clearly the best way to find out about the joys and sorrows and costs of becoming parents is to do a podcast series here on Smart Money.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: That's exactly what I thought.
Sean Pyles: Well, let's get a little bit of background from the two of you. How about a quick origin story? I want to hear how you guys met, when, where, all of those fun details.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: We met six years ago in New Delhi, India. Each of us had gone independently. We didn't know each other before, but we were both working there in the city and we met. We went on our first date to a Mexican restaurant.
Sean Pyles: A Mexican restaurant in New Delhi!
Jeremy Wade: And I think the only one in Delhi.
Sean Pyles: Did they have curry burritos?
Jeremy Wade: It was straight Mexican. They definitely had some great margaritas. I remember we had some margaritas.
Sean Pyles: Awesome. All right. So then eventually you guys started dating. What was the proposal like?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah, we got engaged in the summer of 2020, just a few months into the pandemic.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Yeah. We found a resort up in the Himalayas near Rishikesh where the Ganges start, and we found a resort that was doing a quarantine holiday thing. So they'll come and pick you up if you have negative COVID tests and then they'll like take you there. And I had no idea. I had no idea we were getting engaged. With the pandemic and everything, it was a crazy time, but Jeremy had other plans.
Sean Pyles: But how romantic! In this hard time you guys had this wonderful moment of getting engaged in a beautiful location and you guys got married and now of course you're thinking about starting a family. Did you guys talk about kids before you got married and, if so, were you on the same page?
Jeremy Wade: We definitely talked about it and we found we were both open to it for sure. The timing of it was definitely a question that we got aligned over time. We did decide that we wanted to get a dog to test it out.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: We got our puppy Mo, who's a toy fox terrier, smartest little guy ever. But we got him literally the same month we got married. So we're like, "Okay. We're going to try this out."
Sean Pyles: Got it. So you were open to it, but you weren't set on, “We're going to have kids when we get married,” because a lot of couples that I know are that. Taking a step back, I'd love to hear what kinds of thoughts and experiences you had around parenthood growing up.
Jeremy Wade: I know for me, I always had the thought I wanted to be a dad from a young age, but as I started my career, it went to the back of my mind for sure. And I moved to higher cost of living cities and that felt even more in the distance. But that really changed when Ronita and I met.
Sean Pyles: Ronita, what about you?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: I think my answer's a bit more complicated. I'm of Indian heritage and so the notion of being a parent felt like it was a requirement. It was culturally required by the community, by parents, by family. And I think I was not ready to take that on without thinking about it. For a long time, I didn't want to be a parent and I pushed it away just because I felt a lot of pressure around, “That's your identity.” And then that's compounded with the fact I was also living in New York City for a long time and it just seems such a no-go there.
Sean Pyles: Yeah. And just because the city itself is so expensive, you wouldn't have any spare money to raise a child?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Yeah, exactly. It's like I saw what people were going through with getting their kids into school and waiting lists from three, four years before and all these things or people moved out, they left the city. So during that time especially, I was thinking, "I don't know if this is for me," but as I got older and really that question came up, "Do I want to do this? I want to be intentional with my choice." And I started being open to it as I hit my early thirties and then I met Jeremy and he was someone that I thought I could see doing this with him, and I wouldn't mind my kids to turn out like him. I mean, they're going to be part you, part your partner. So I thought I wouldn't mind having some rugrats that are like him.
Sean Pyles: Well, now I want to turn to the money stuff. Did the financial obligations of having a child factor into this thought process and the conversations you guys had, and if so, can you walk me through some of those conversations?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah. It certainly was a big factor. We both moved across the world during the pandemic. We both changed jobs and getting financially secure was I think a factor that played a large role for us. And that happened more recently. We both felt secure in our new place and new jobs. So I think that was a big factor.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Honestly, it became more and more of a possibility when I felt more financially secure to do it and to take this on. I think Jeremy was confident in our abilities way earlier than I was.
Sean Pyles: Yeah. You wanted to have two solid incomes before you were going to embark on becoming parents, is that right?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Yeah. Solid incomes, health insurance in place and also health insurance in place if it takes a bit more. And what we did do during the pandemic is that we moved to Tulsa, but we did it with the Tulsa Remote program. They help you move here and get settled in. And I found, I'm from the East Coast, and I found that the cost of living in Tulsa is so much lower and it's a kid-friendly city. Jeremy's family is nearby. So all of a sudden these pieces that were fitting together, I was like, "Okay. I can see it now where the cost of living is lower. We have lots of public parks."
Sean Pyles: OK. So did you guys feel like once you were settled in Tulsa that this would be the place where you were going to start a family? Or was there anything else that you guys had to work through before you could get to that point?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah, that was a question. I had grown up in Oklahoma and moved away intentionally for job opportunities, but just seeing more opportunities outside the state. So the idea and the experience of moving back to Oklahoma was a process. And I think these questions really weighed on my mind in terms of policies that the state has in terms of education and the idea of raising kids here I think took some time. But then more recently, I just really can see that path now and want to actually contribute and make Oklahoma a place where you'd want to live.
Sean Pyles: Yeah. OK. So at what point did you two decide that you were maybe ready for parenthood?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Ready for parenthood? Okay. Well, we started trying this year. We recognize that someone that's like, now I'm on the other side of 35. So how old am I now, 36? Yes, I'm 36, going to be 37. So I'm aware that we're on this journey a little late. There are questions on what they consider like "geriatric pregnancy." Again, not to say that it can't happen of course, but there are additional complications and so it may take longer. We might need to consider other avenues.
Sean Pyles: Have you started to look into those options and what they might do for your bottom line?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: This is why we're doing this podcast, Sean.
Sean Pyles: All right. Well, let's talk a little bit more about how you guys manage your money, and particularly what financial planning you've done in advance of this decision to possibly become parents. So if you can lay it out, what does your money life look like?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah. This was a journey for us. We both had lived independently for most of our adult life and had managed our finances individually. So the idea of jointly thinking about the future and jointly making decisions was a process. And we started a joint account, while we still maintain our individual accounts, we started a joint account together. Something that really I think worked for us is starting a monthly meeting where we called it “Mo Money Meeting.”
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: It's called “Mo Money” because it's a play on the Biggie song, “Mo Money Mo Problems" and the fact that our dog is named Mo and he does not worry about money at all. So we both aim to get onto Mo's level of financial security.
Sean Pyles: Great. So what do you guys talk about in that meeting?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah. We check in to see where we're at with income, with our bank accounts, our balances, credit scores. But importantly we think through spending, what do we want to spend on, in particular our joint accounts and our joint money. And honestly, we've started chatting about having a kid and what does that mean for savings in particular?
Sean Pyles: So where have you come to on that?
Jeremy Wade: Yeah. Also, after our wedding we had a reception and we had some gift money that came through that. So one of the things we did was we decided to put this away in an inflation-protected bond and specifically for kid expenses. And luckily we timed that well when the interest rate was at 9.6, I think it's come down since then.
Sean Pyles: That's pretty sweet.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: We also looked at our health insurance plans with work and we got some advice on how to think about costs for pregnancy and childbirth. We switched insurance plans, we then had an HSA and now we've been putting more money toward the HSA to help cover possible future costs of having a kid.
Jeremy Wade: Yeah, we tend to plan way in advance.
Sean Pyles: I'm totally a planner as well, so I appreciate that. And I'm not your financial advisor and neither is NerdWallet, but I would say that you guys seem to have been doing pretty well with all of that homework and I love the “Mo Money Meeting.” So I love to hear what you guys are doing now while you wait to see what's going to happen. What has that moment been like?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: I'm not going to lie, I'm about to be 37. We've been trying now for a couple of months, and it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would. I feel like the sex ed we had in high school just completely duped me into thinking that you just get pregnant immediately. So that's been a bit of, it's been weird. It's to go through this process expecting it again, like, OK. It'll happen in a month, then two months, and knowing that it's taking a lot longer. And initially I did. I bought all the books. Because I was thinking, "How long is this going to take?" And maybe that was just my own ignorance and I had to just stop reading them because I was like, "This isn't helping me right now."
Jeremy Wade: One of the things we're also doing is we're really focusing on our health, doing the things that we can do. We both have Oura rings, we're tracking our sleep and our readiness scores each day and trying to eat healthy. And one thing we're thinking about is what's hard to do once we have a kid? So in terms of planning, we're planning a trip, a vacation next month and making it a little adventurous. It's in Panama and we're going to rent a car and drive across the country to a beach.
Sean Pyles: Sounds beautiful. And also that would be very hard to do with a newborn.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Absolutely. But yeah, I mean overall it's a big decision and we're clearly, we're trying to think through as much as we can, but this podcast is helping.
Sean Pyles: Awesome. Well, I definitely approve of that vacation and this podcast series. I'm really excited for it. And Ronita and Jeremy, thank you for sharing your story with us. Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Jeremy Wade: Thank you. It was great.
Sean Pyles: Ronita, I really want to thank you again for sharing your personal experience with us. Trying to become a parent can be challenging, no matter your circumstances, and it can be a really lonely process too. So I hope your story helps other folks who are on this journey realize they have plenty of company and that there are resources available to help them navigate this emotionally charged and expensive time.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Absolutely. I mean, one thing I've realized is that the more I talk about it with friends or colleagues or family, and what I mean by "it" is my hopes, but also my disappointments or my frustrations, which is it's like putting my business out there and ours with Jeremy. But the more that I do that, the more I realize I'm not alone in this. And going out on the line and saying what's going on has also opened the door for my friends and all and others to be like, "Yeah girl. This is hard and it might not be as easy as you think." And it's just really reassuring to hear that and just to know that you're not alone out there.
Sean Pyles: So, who are we hearing from next?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Well, I thought it would be good to hear from someone who deals with financial planning for kids all the time. So we're joined by Julia Colantuono, she's a certified financial planner and the founder of One Financial Design. She's a parent herself and as a financial planner, she's seen many parents' financial situations.
Sean Pyles: All right.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Julia, so glad you could join us on Smart Money.
Julia Colantuono: Thank you so much for having me.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So obviously this is a financial show and we're going to talk brass tacks and numbers in a moment, but I wonder if you could walk us through some of the more basic questions people might consider before deciding to have kids. What do you encourage people to think about when they first come to you for advice?
Julia Colantuono: OK. So this is a loaded question. I mean the decision to even have kids or not is a big one and a very personal one, obviously. So before we even get into numbers, I really encourage people to sit down and reflect a little bit on what's really important to them and to really be honest with themselves. Just think about what really matters to you and know that everyone's answer to this is going to be completely different and there's different fears and different thoughts that come up for everyone based on your own situation.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So going off of that, what are some of the questions people should ask themselves outside of whether they can afford parenthood?
Julia Colantuono: Where money does start to come in is, think about why money is important to you. So ask yourself that question. What are the important things to you in life, whether it's having kids or maybe it's a career path that you've chosen or something else that's really important to you and ask yourself that first. And then if you're in a relationship, it's also really important to talk about it together because you might have different viewpoints of that. So setting a time to really talk about it, talk about your motivations, what do you want your life to look like? If you do want to have kids, what life do you want to provide for them? And this can bring up some interesting stories of people's childhoods or what they want for their kids or what they think their kids might need and have a different opinion from their spouse. So it can get really interesting, but talking about it is really the important thing here.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So one of the things we explore a lot on this show is the psychology of money, and especially how the money culture we grew up with can influence how we think today. And I'm saying this too as a daughter of immigrants, and my parents raised us with a whole thought process about money and saving and what you're supposed to do with it. So how do you think that applies to this question of having kids? The money culture one grew up with: How does that affect the question of having kids?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This can show up in so many different ways and obviously it depends on your situation, but the immigrant family that you grew up in could have a totally different point of view than another. A big one I see a lot is in the American culture, people thinking they have to have a big house or move out to the suburbs and buy a huge house with a yard and lots of bedrooms for their kids, especially if you're already living in the city and have a certain lifestyle. I see a lot of people thinking they need a certain, or they need their life to look a certain way before having kids, and it's just not true. I mean if you look outside your little circle a little bit, you'll see people who do it in all different kinds of ways. I think based on people, how they grew up, they can have these notions in their head of the life they want to give their kids, but the life they give their kids could be totally different from the life they had and just as good or even better.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: All right. Well, to get to brass tacks, as I mentioned, earlier in the show, my husband and I were talking with Sean about our own decision to have children and the role money played in that decision. And I have to say that it is expensive. In fact, the Brookings Institution looked at figures the USDA put out in 2015, reworked them for inflation and found it costs around $300,000 to raise a child in the US until the age 17. Honestly, you hear that figure and wonder how anyone moves forward with this decision at all.
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. That's a striking number because when you think about your other expenses and how much they cost in a year, this study is saying to raise kids is way up there with some of your most expensive items.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So you have what we might describe as eras in the cost of parenthood, too. How that money works out over those 17 years, if not longer. Should we start at the very beginning with the expense of pregnancy and childbirth? And if you're fortunate, insurance will cover most of this, right?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. Insurance will cover most of it. I found a figure that said that on average after insurance, most parents pay between $2,000 and $3,000 out of their own pocket to have one child. So that's just something to think about in terms of what it actually costs for the childbirth and the OB-GYN visits and what have you. So there's that hurdle to get over. And then of course you go into all the phases of parenthood and there's more money to be spent as well.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: And what if you don't have insurance?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. Then it can be very expensive. I know there's also options, in terms of home births I think are on the rise maybe because of this as well, but it definitely pays to have health insurance.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So then you have the baby, and those first couple of years are filled with everything from diapers to clothes to food. Is there anything I'm missing, and what am I missing in those first couple of years?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. So you have the baby and your life completely changes. Besides the things that you might expect, there's also things you might not expect like, how your physical energy changes and the things that we can't really measure that go into that. But in that first phase when your kids are babies and toddlers, the biggest expense really is childcare. And beyond just maternity or paternity leave, you then have to think about: Are both parents going back to work? Is one of them going to stay at home, part-time or full-time? Are you going to need to send your kids to a daycare or are you going to hire a nanny? And that decision really is a very, very expensive one. I would say second to college costs, that's the most expensive decision or the one that has the biggest effect on finances.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: I've had friends where they've considered staying home instead of going back to work because the amount of money for daycare is going to equal the salary one would bring home. OK. So what would be the next stage of expense that kicks in? Say we're going into pre-k and kindergarten, and I suppose that depends on whether you're using the public school system or private?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. That's a huge difference. If your kids are going into public school, all of a sudden your world opens up in the sense that now you've got a portion of the day where your kids are going to be physically taken care of and it's free if they're in public school. So that now means that maybe the parent who was staying home before, now goes back to work and earns an income. Or the daycare costs that you had, that you won't have anymore. That's a huge expense that now drops off of your budget. So when your kids get to be that age of five, six, they're going into school, your budget typically has a lot more wiggle room in there now.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Yeah. And we don't need to go through each grade level, but once we start hitting elementary school and before a kid gets to high school, what costs are we looking at? Piano lessons, soccer uniforms, snacks?
Julia Colantuono: Exactly. Yeah, you got it. All that stuff. And that's really dependent on the family and what things you want to provide for your kids. Some families might need after school care, which is an expense depending on how many activities and sports and things you want them to be in. That can play a role here. Also, summer camp is a big one that I see differs from family to family. If a parent has a flexible job or if they're a teacher where they can take the summer off, typically those families are able to save on some of those summer camp costs. Maybe if they choose to do things like stay more at home or go to the beach and things like that with their kids during the summer rather than have them in expensive camps for every week of the summer. So that can play a big difference too.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: OK. So we're getting to high school, what are we looking at for costs then? What should people be aware of to expect during those high school years and quite transformative years?
Julia Colantuono: So some things that change here are, No. 1 is the kids can be more independent. So physically you don't need to be there all the time. If you work a full-time job and they get home from school off the bus, if they're 13, 14, OK, now they can just stay at home for a couple of hours by themselves and it's not a concern. So that again, gives you more opportunity to work full-time maybe if a parent was working part-time before and things like that. So that can have an impact on their finances.
But then teenagers do get a little bit expensive, too. So if you're buying them a car or they're getting on your car insurance, now they're wanting an allowance to go out with their friends and spend on going out to eat or out for ice cream, things like that. It can get expensive. But again, it depends on the family and it depends how you want to structure your family life in that stage. Do you want to make your kid pay for their own car if they're going to have the privilege of driving a car? Will they get a job? Things like that. So it depends on the family.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: And, I mean, the big looming goal is, of course, college, post-secondary education. And some families will be looking down the line at college costs. So maybe starting a 529 plan. And, I mean, college doesn't even factor into that $300,000 figure we talked about earlier. I mean, how early do you start planning and setting aside for your kids' college?
Julia Colantuono: Yeah. So the earlier the better of course. And you can start as early as you want actually even before you have a kid. If this is something you're thinking about and you want to get ahead of, it is a huge big expense. And I hate to see when parents get to the point of where their kids are in high school and now they're starting to talk about it and think about it and realize that they really haven't saved as much as they maybe should have or would have if they could go back in time.
So it does pay off to start saving as early as you can. We know that the impact of compound interest is quite large and you can benefit the most from it when you start saving earlier rather than later. And with a 529 college savings plan, that's just one way that you can start saving for college.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Any final words of wisdom for those listeners who are having a big think about having kids.
Julia Colantuono: Again, just before you dive into the numbers, just think about what really matters to you. How will you feel if the money part of it makes the decision for you? Think about that because I find that a lot of people will use money as an excuse to cover up what they might really want deep down. So it's just digging deep and getting to the root of what you really want that's important here.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Well, Julia Colantuono, thank you so much for joining us today.
Julia Colantuono: Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: So Sean, clearly Jeremy and I have some planning to do on top of all the planning we're already doing and probably even more savings than we've done already.
Sean Pyles: Yeah, I can imagine. And something that I'm thinking about after that conversation is given how expensive everything is nowadays is whether having a kid is even financially viable for a lot of folks. Or if you do decide to jump in and have a kid, what other financial trade-offs are you making? But of course, having a kid is more a life decision than a financial decision, even if the financial implications are really enormous.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: I think that's a really valid question about whether having a kid is even financially viable for a lot of folks. And it came up for Jeremy and I. I mean, if we didn't move somewhere like Tulsa that has a lower cost of living, I'm not 100% sure we would even be having this conversation because I'm not sure I would even be fully comfortable having kids right now. They are expensive and as parents say, you want to give your kids everything, but what if you're in a financial situation where you can't give them everything you want to give them.
And, I feel like that hits especially hard for me. I mean, I'm a daughter of immigrant parents who literally started in the U.S. with two suitcases. So growing up, money played a role in the household. It was almost like another family member. It was talked about, it was worried about and it just played a large role. So now as an adult who's thinking about having kids, I don't want them to have to worry about money as I did. And if I can do that, I would just love it.
Sean Pyles: It'd be a huge relief. And, it can be really helpful to keep in mind as well that there are always going to be some financial challenges and compromises no matter the family circumstances that you're in. But by upping your financial education and focusing on how you can set your family up for success, you would really be giving your kiddo a huge headstart. All right. Well, can you tell us what's up in episode two of this series?
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: Well, next episode we're going to talk about adoption. It's an incredibly complex process with a slew of options and with most of them, you're going to have to spend a lot to bring a child into your home, but it's worth it.
Edgar: It's not a small number, definitely, but it's all relative though. Like $40,000 is not a small chunk of change in any way, shape or form. It's also about the average cost of a new car. So it's also not an exponential expense that people don't usually deal with.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: For now, that's all we have for this episode. Do you have a money question of your own? Turn to the Nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at [email protected]. Also visit nerdwallet.com/podcast or more info on this episode. And remember to follow, rate and review us wherever you're getting this podcast.
Sean Pyles: This episode was produced by Tess Vigeland and Ronita Choudhuri-Wade. I helped with editing, Kim Lowe helped with fact checking, Kaely Monahan mixed our audio. And a big thank you to the folks on the NerdWallet copy desk for all their help.
Ronita Choudhuri-Wade: And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.
Sean Pyles: And with that said, until next time, turn to the Nerds.