Smart Money Podcast: Zelle Scams, and When to Sell Investments

Welcome to NerdWallet’s Smart Money podcast, where we answer your real-world money questions.

This week’s episode starts with a discussion about protecting yourself from fraud in honor of Cybersecurity Awareness Month.

Then we pivot to this week’s money question from Michael, who wrote this email: “Hi Nerds, thank you for your helpful and entertaining advice. My question is, I have been a buy-and-hold investor for many, many years. So one could say I am a buy-and-hold-and-hold-and-hold investor. Over the years, the portfolio has done relatively well, and therefore, if I was going to make any changes that would be advisable at this time, the portfolio would incur very sizable tax events. This scares me, because it might be a good long-term strategy, but I may not have a long time. So I have just continued to hold and get old. Not bad, but what would you suggest? Thanks."

Check out this episode on any of these platforms:

• Apple Podcasts

• Spotify

Our take on peer-to-peer payment apps

Fraud has become increasingly common on peer-to-peer payment apps like Zelle. And because these apps lack the fraud protections that come with credit and debit cards, it’s harder to reclaim any lost money. If you believe you’re a fraud victim, you should file a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and your state’s attorney general.

Limit who you're sending money to through payment apps to people and businesses you trust, and secure your accounts by beefing up your password strength. Cybersecurity experts recommend using different passwords for every account. Consider investing in a password management system that safely stores all of your passwords so you don’t have to memorize them.

Our take on selling stock

A decision to sell stock should take into account several factors, including the type of investment account, tax implications and retirement goals. In general, selling off stock in response to a dip in the market is not advisable because the market will eventually recover. However, for people nearing retirement, it may be prudent to sell stocks and buy more stable assets such as bonds.

You may have to pay taxes when you sell stock, but not always. If you made a profit on the stock, you’ll probably have to pay capital gains tax, whereas a loss can be used to reduce your taxable income by up to $3,000. Taxes can potentially be avoided if you pass down stocks to your heirs.

Our tips

1. Know your strategy: Buy-and-hold is usually a better strategy than day trading, but you still need an exit plan.

2. Consider your account options: Different accounts carry different tax implications, so research the account you’re investing from just as carefully as you’d consider your actual investments.

3. Evolve as needed: It’s OK to adjust your strategy as you get closer to your investment goal. If you need help, talk with a financial advisor.

More about selling stock on NerdWallet:

How to Sell Stock: A 3-Step Guide for Beginners

How to Reduce Capital Gains Tax: Strategies to Consider

Tax-Loss Harvesting: Turn Investment Losses into Tax Breaks

Have a money question? Text or call us at 901-730-6373. Or you can email us at [email protected]. To hear previous episodes, go to the podcast homepage.

Episode transcript

Sean Pyles: Buy-and-hold is a time honored way to invest. But can you take it too far?

Sara Rathner: Welcome to the NerdWallet Smart Money podcast, where you send us your money questions, and we answer them, with the help of our genius Nerds. I'm Sara Rathner.

Sean Pyles: And I'm Sean Pyles. If you want the Nerds to answer your money question, call or text us on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. Or email us at [email protected].

Sara Rathner: And as a note, we want to hear as many of your questions as possible, so please send us a voicemail or a voice memo if you can, but email is still fine. No pressure. Also, subscribe to get new episodes in your feed every Monday. And if you like what you hear, leave us a review and tell your friends.

Sean Pyles: In this episode, my regular co-host, Liz Weston, and I answer a listener's question about buy-and-hold investing. Stick around to the end of the episode to hear our takeaway tips about what to do if you've held onto your stocks for too long. But first, in honor of Cybersecurity Month, Sara and I want to talk about how you can protect yourself from fraud.

Sara Rathner: First of all, I did not know it was Cybersecurity Month. I don't know how to celebrate this. I'm going to go change all my passwords.

Sean Pyles: We'll get to that, yes.

Sara Rathner: Anyway. So, speaking of Cybersecurity Month, let's start with Zelle, which is the payment system created by big banks as an alternative to PayPal and Venmo. So it's been in the news recently because Senator Elizabeth Warren recently released a report showing that Zelle fraud claims had more than doubled at four large banks since 2020, and that losses were on track to exceed a quarter of a billion dollars this year.

Sean Pyles: Sheesh.

Sara Rathner: Yeah, that's a lot of money guys. And the losses are likely much higher because those numbers don't include three of the banks that own Zelle. Warren said that those three banks didn't provide complete information, despite several requests. So that's bad, but it's going to get worse because most of the time when people are tricked into sending money to scammers, the banks decide the transaction was authorized and refuse to reimburse the victims.

Sean Pyles: Yeah. Based on data from the three banks, less than 10% of those who reported losing money to a Zelle scam got their money back, according to Warren's report. And it's a shame because a lot of people might trust Zelle because it is promoted by their bank, but Zelle doesn't have the same protections that you would get using a debit card, a credit card or even a good old fashioned check. Often once the money is sent, it's just gone. Poof.

Sara Rathner: So listen. Sean, you and I, we talked a little bit, and we both use peer-to-peer money sending programs, and they all come with risks. This is not unique to Zelle. But one way that you can protect yourself if you do choose to use programs like Zelle or Venmo or PayPal is to only transact with people and businesses you know well and make sure to verify them.

Sean Pyles: Exactly. And I would say 95% of the transactions that I make on my peer-to-peer payment app are with friends. I'm covering brunch and they're sending me money or something like that. The other 5% is typically when I'm at a market, and they accept payment through Venmo or PayPal, what have you. In that case, I see them right in front of me. I'm sending the money directly. I know that they are getting it, and I'm getting the product in my hand right then and there. It's not some nebulous thing I'm getting off the internet and hoping that it all works out.

Sara Rathner: Right. And there are some professionals I hire: pet sitters, handymen, things like that. They'll take payment from Venmo, which is very convenient for me. But it's a real person standing in front of you, holding out their QR code on their phone for me to scan and for me to pay them directly, so I always make sure that I am paying the right person — especially if they have a really common name because it is possible to accidentally send money to the wrong person if you sent it to mikejacobs1 instead of mikejacobs2. So, that's something that you want to know and verify before you send the money.

Sean Pyles: On the other hand, a lot of scammers will try to do things like play on your emotions. We see this a lot with people who try to buy dogs online for some reason. You'll see a listing for a dog and it will be the one that you've been looking for, hoping for, for months and months. And the breeder might demand that you send over a certain amount of money to put a hold on the dog or just buy the dog outright. But the thing is, that dog might not be real, and now you've been duped and you've sent money that you will most likely not get back.

So, that is a very common example of a Zelle scam that you'll see online because they're rushing you into something — using a high-pressure tactic — and playing on your emotions, promising that you'll get something that you've been wanting for a long time.

Sara Rathner: This really bothers me as a dog lover.

Sean Pyles: I know.

Sara Rathner: On so many levels.

Sean Pyles: I know. Yeah.

Sara Rathner: Because first of all, don't bring innocent dogs into your scam. Don't do that. Don't buy a dog from a random stranger on the internet. It's just not a good move.

Sean Pyles: No, and I'm just going to say, it's another good reason to adopt from a shelter versus buying one online. So, there's that too.

Sara Rathner: Yes. You should meet the dog before you get the dog, whether you go through a shelter or a breeder.

Sean Pyles: Right.

Sara Rathner: You should know that a real dog exists.

Sean Pyles: But to bring it back to Zelle, know that you do have consumer rights, despite what your bank might tell you. I would suggest filing a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and your state's attorney general.

Sara Rathner: So beyond being wary of sending money over the internet, if you're going to do one thing during this made-up government hallmark holiday month, please for the love of your own information and privacy and everything that's holy, make your passwords stronger and more secure. This is something that many people brush off. I'm guilty of it, too, because laziness. But it can have a huge impact on your life.

Sean Pyles: I was talking about this with a friend the other day because I kind of get into these death spirals with my passwords where I make these really elaborate ones for one account and then I have a variation for another account, and then I can't keep straight which is for which. And I was talking with my friend about how I finally sorted out my own system for keeping track of my passwords and they said, "Oh, well I'm just using the same password I've had for my AIM account since elementary school." And I'm like, "Why did you tell me this? Please, I'm so worried for you, but also go change your password."

So this is a hill I am happy to die on. Just everyone, please spend maybe 30 minutes, possibly even less, making your passwords stronger and more secure. So there are a couple simple don'ts. One is, don't use the same password for every account, and don't have that same password you've been using since elementary school.

One thing that folks should do is think of password phrases that are harder to crack than one-word passwords. Think of something that — it could even be like a favorite song lyric or something that you like to say to yourself, like a little mantra. Just make it so that it's a little bit easier to remember for yourself beyond just one word and a variation of numbers and letters and capitalization and punctuation, all of those things.

And then also, use some sort of password management system. This can be an official password manager, like an app. A lot of them have free tiers that you can use. Some charge you around $30 to $60 a year. I don't use one of those, to be honest. I actually use something that is much lazier but works for me. I have a note on my phone that I keep all of my passwords in, and you can secure notes on your phone. People may not know this, but you can actually make a password for certain notes so that way only I know the password to this note on my phone where I have all of my passwords secured. So that's what works for me.

Sara Rathner: Yeah. Another thing I like to do is, don't use words or phrases that are easily Google-able about yourself, like your hometown or your maiden name or your pet's names or where you went to college, things like that. You don't want Penn State and your birthday to be your password because those are all things that somebody can find out about you with a couple of quick searches.

Instead of picking a number that's easy to identify, like your birthday, if there's a certain date that has meaning for you, maybe it's the date of your first date with your partner or the date you adopted a cat or something — it's just a random day that's not part of your personal identifiable information — then those numbers could be helpful to include if you need to include numbers in a password, things like that. Just get creative about things in your life that are memorable to you, but are not things that are commonly known about yourself, and that could help you make a good password.

Sean Pyles: Yeah. And one thing that motivates me, or did motivate me to take care of my passwords and get them all sorted and organized, is the sheer risk and terror of someone getting into my accounts. Because they can wreak havoc really quickly if they can access your bank account, and if you have the same password on your bank account as you have on your credit card, then they can do a lot of damage to your finances that can make a big mess for you to have to clean up.

Sara Rathner: I'll also say this: You should set your phone up so that it locks and you have to enter a key code, or you have to use your thumbprint or your face to unlock the phone. A lot of people don't do that. And you keep a lot of important personal information on your phone, including access to your various financial accounts through bank apps. So set that up so if your phone gets lost or if you just kind of leave it on the table at a coffee shop while you go to the bathroom or something, people can't open up your phone and access your information.

Sean Pyles: Well, folks, I hope you take at least 30 minutes some time in this coming month to think about your cybersecurity, do a little bit of work to make yourself more secure online. You will thank yourself later on. Well, now I think we can get onto this episode's Money Question Segment.

Sara Rathner: Let's do it.

Liz Weston: This episode's money question comes from Michael, who uses he/him pronouns. Michael wrote, "Hi Nerds, thank you for your helpful and entertaining advice. My question is, I have been a buy-and-hold investor for many, many years. So one could say I am a buy-and-hold-and-hold-and-hold investor. Over the years, the portfolio has done relatively well, and therefore, if I was going to make any changes that would be advisable at this time, the portfolio would incur very sizable tax events. This scares me, because it might be a good long-term strategy, but I may not have a long time. So I have just continued to hold and get old. Not bad, but what would you suggest? Thanks."

Sean Pyles: Got to say, Michael, I appreciate the lyricism in your question and it's very thoughtful. It's a question we don't get very often, but it's one I've been curious about. So to help us answer Michael's question on this episode of the podcast, we are joined by investing Nerd Alana Benson. Welcome back to Smart Money, Alana.

Alana Benson: Hey, guys.

Sean Pyles: Before we get into these questions that I have for you, which are many, quick disclaimer: We are not investment advisors, we're not going to tell you what to do with your money. This is all for general educational and entertainment purposes. So with that out of the way, Alana, can you give us a quick rundown of what it means to be a buy-and-hold, or in Michael's case, buy-and-hold-and-hold-and-hold investor?

Alana Benson: Yes. So buy-and-hold, it's a popular investment strategy, and the idea behind it is that you're investing in a company stock or a fund, just an investment that you think has long-term growth potential. You buy the investment and then you hold onto it for a long time, in the hopes that it grows a lot, but not overnight. You're really looking for the long term. This strategy is great because it's really easy and hands off. It's popular with retirement investors, but your listener has a really great point. You buy and then you hold and then you hold, and then what do you do? It's not always easy to know.

Sean Pyles: Can you contrast that with other investment strategies?

Alana Benson: One of the best contrasts I can make is with day traders. So these are the folks who are looking to make profits off of short-term investments. Maybe they'll look at the news or politics and try to predict which companies are going to do well and which ones will not. This is really risky. It's highly speculative, whereas buy-and-hold tends to be less risky, especially if you're doing it with a well-diversified portfolio instead of individual stocks.

Sean Pyles: But there are some risks to buy-and-hold-and-hold-and-hold, right?

Alana Benson: Yes, there are, as with all forms of investing, nothing is guaranteed. There will always be risks. And your listener gets to a great point that we may talk about a bit later, is taxes, and how do we navigate that kind of tricky terrain?

Liz Weston: And Alana, you mentioned well-diversified portfolios, and that brings us to another danger of buy-and-hold, which is that you can wind up with a very, very concentrated portfolio if you just let your winners run and you never trim them back. So, we've had this in our family where somebody really hated taxes and so refused to sell, and wound up having a handful of stocks represent 80% or 90% of the total portfolio, and that is kind of scary. So even if you are a buy-and-hold investor, you've got to have some kind of exit plan, some kind of strategy to make sure that your portfolio doesn't get that lopsided.

Sean Pyles: Yeah. Well, what I find really interesting about Michael's question is that I feel like in the personal finance world, there are kind of two prevailing narratives around investing. And one tends to be more around the day traders, the meme stock people that we saw back in early 2021 just hopping aboard a company and riding it high and then getting off before it crashes, and then on the other end of the spectrum there are folks who invest for a very, very long time, like our listener here. And then what about the middle ground? When should people think about selling stock, and how should they do this in the right way?

Alana Benson: It's really difficult to know, right? Because there's always that little bit of tension where you're like, "Oh, maybe it'll do better tomorrow, and I should continue holding onto it." But we have to remember what the basis of investing and personal finance is all about. It's about building wealth so that you can eventually use it for something in the future. It's not just about the number in your investment account — it's what do you need that money for in retirement? And that's paying for things. It's paying for housing, it's paying for food, it's paying for your lifestyle. And if you buy-and-hold-and-hold-and-hold and never sell, then you won't actually get to use that money.

Sean Pyles: So it seems like it would behoove our listener or anyone else in a similar situation to think about why they would maybe want to sell the stock or why not.

Alana Benson: And that's a great point. I think that when it comes to selling stock, there are a couple of things that are really good to consider. So one, why are you selling it? Just like you said, are you selling out of fear that the market is doing badly, or are you looking at the fundamental numbers of the company and you've made an informed decision that now is a good time to sell? Selling based on fear can really lock in your losses, so if your primary motivation is an emotional response that's not really based on hard numbers, maybe just take a day or two and calm down, and then maybe make a decision later.

Sean Pyles: Yeah, I really like that point because I think a number of folks have seen how the stock market has performed since the beginning of 2022 and are thinking, "Should I stay in the stock market? Because things are looking shaky." You don't want to lock in losses because investing is often a long-term game.

Alana Benson: But that is a good point, right? If you are right on the verge of a retirement right now and you see that the market is not doing really well, you may want to reconsider the strategy that you have. If you're heavily invested in riskier assets and you're on the precipice of retirement, you want to be able to protect all that money that you've earned over the long period of time by investing. And so we can talk about strategy in a bit, but sometimes it may be good to switch up your strategy, depending on what the market's doing. Not necessarily reacting out of fear, but saying, "Hey, I'm going to actually want to use this money in the next few years, so I want to make sure it's actually protected."

Liz Weston: And that comes back to the asset allocation thing, as you need to have some idea of what breakdown you want to have between stocks and bonds and cash and different kinds of stocks and different kinds of bonds, and stick to that asset allocation over time, because that can help you be a more disciplined investor and not be so emotional. And even if you are kind of ratcheting back your risk as you get closer to retirement, most of us are still going to need the returns that only stocks can offer if we want to have a comfortable retirement, so you can't completely bail out of stocks. As we know, things like inflation can eat away at the value of a dollar, and stocks beat inflation over time, so some sort of exposure is still something you need to have.

Alana Benson: And another thing to think about is that if you want to sell an individual stock, you can always consider selling it to reinvest in a more diversified way. As Liz was saying, if you're getting really over-weighted in one particular stock, you could sell that and potentially reinvest it into something like an index fund or some other more diversified way that protects you a little bit more.

Sean Pyles: Our listener is really concerned about the tax implications of selling stock, so let's dig into that. What should they consider?

Alana Benson: So unfortunately, or fortunately, if you profit off a sale of a stock, right? We all want to do that. Meaning, if you bought it at $10 and you sold it at $50, you'll likely have to pay tax on the $40 that you earned, right? The government is always going to want some of your profit.

Typically, if you held the shares for more than a year, you'll pay what's called long-term capital gains tax, meaning the profit that you made will be taxed at either 0%, 15% or 20%, depending on your income. Now, if you held the shares for a year or less, you'll pay short-term capital gains tax and you'll be taxed at your regular tax bracket. And then any dividends you receive from stocks are also usually taxable. So there will be a taxable event, more than likely.

Sean Pyles: But at this point, given Michael's hold-and-hold-and-hold strategy, he would be facing most likely long-term capital gains.

Alana Benson: We can assume that. Of course, everyone's financial situation is different.

Liz Weston: And we've been talking for the most part about federal taxes. State and local taxes can be another layer on top of this. And if you live in a state like California, which doesn't really recognize capital gains as a separate thing, it all gets taxed as income. So if you have a high enough income, you could be looking at a pretty good chunk of your money going out the door in taxes.

Sean Pyles: Yeah, it's an interesting point. We don't know where Michael lives, but that could have a big implication on how concerned he should be around taxes.

Alana Benson: There's also a strategy that may be a little advanced for some, but you can use investment capital losses to offset your gains. So the difference between your capital gains and your capital losses —what you would miss out on — is called your net capital gain. And if your losses are greater than your gains, that's called a net capital loss. And you can actually use it to offset your ordinary income by up to $3,000, or $1,500 for those who are married filing separately, and any additional losses can actually be carried forward to future years to offset capital gains of up to $3,000 of ordinary income per year. So, this is a bit of an advanced strategy. It involves a lot of math, so always talk to a tax advisor or a CPA if you have one to make sure that you are doing this correctly if you're going to use this strategy.

Liz Weston: Yes. And we should also talk about what's pretty much the ultimate tax break, which is a step-up in tax basis. And that means that if Michael bequeaths these stocks to his heirs, all the appreciation is tax-free. In other words, nobody ever pays taxes on the gain that happened with the stocks that he's been holding. So this is true for stocks, this is true for real estate, it's true for a lot of assets — that when somebody dies and passes things onto their heirs, it essentially gets a new value for tax purposes, and none of the capital gains is ever taxed.

Sean Pyles: I've seen this more often around real estate where mom and dad want to give their kid the house, and so they'll put them on the deed. And if they do that before mom and dad pass away, the kids can be liable for all the gain value since the parents bought that house however many years ago. Whereas if they had given it to them through their will, they would get that step-up in tax basis and they wouldn't be on the hook for those taxes.

Liz Weston: Yeah, this is definitely something to consider if you're older and you have assets that have appreciated a lot in value. You definitely want to get some good tax advice to guide you going forward.

Sean Pyles: One thing that can help anyone who is concerned about taxes and investing are tax-advantaged accounts. Alana, can you give us a rundown of these?

Alana Benson: Yes. So your listener is concerned about triggering taxable events because they've been holding onto their investments for a long time, and that's a very fair concern — especially if those investments have seen a lot of growth — which hopefully they have. But we don't know what type of account Michael has his investments in, and this will make a really big difference because depending on the investment account they have, that will really impact the tax treatment. So for instance, if Michael had been investing through a Roth IRA all this time, any dividends and capital gains in a Roth IRA grow tax-free. If they're holding those investments in a standard brokerage account, they will have to pay tax on them. And if they're in a traditional IRA, taxes will just be deferred until later.

Sean Pyles: If all of these letters are confusing you, then talk with the tax pro, read a couple NerdWallet articles, and you'll make sense of it, but there can be pretty significant differences from one account to the next.

Alana Benson: Now, if you have a traditional IRA, you can actually convert that into a Roth IRA so that withdrawals and retirement are tax-free, but there's a note: Only post-tax dollars get to go into Roth IRAs. And also, if you've deducted traditional IRA contributions on your taxes and then decide to convert this to a Roth, you'll need to pay taxes on the money you contributed, just like everyone else who invests in a Roth IRA. And just like Sean said, this is confusing. All that to say, these investment accounts are just where your investments live, and depending on the type of account you have, how your investments and your capital gains will be taxed will really vary significantly. So, if you're opening an account or looking to roll something over, it's really worth reading the fine print on what these accounts can do for your taxes.

Sean Pyles: One thing I want to talk about, which is I think really the undercurrent of Michael's question, is how investment strategies change as you age. Liz, Alana, how do you think about that?

Alana Benson: So typically as people get older or closer to retirement, their investment strategies tend to get more conservative. If you have a lot of years until retirement or a different goal, you can kind of ride out the highs and the lows of the stock market and take a lot of risk. And over time, those huge jumps and dips will likely smooth out into a line that hopefully gradually trends upwards, as long as you actually stay invested for the long haul. But as you get closer to retirement and you need that money, if the stock market crashes, you'll have to take it out at a loss. A lot of times, people would shift their investment portfolios from riskier assets earlier in their investing journey and move them into more conservative strategies over time. So conservative assets like bonds don't necessarily offer a really high rate of return that stocks potentially can, but they can safeguard the money that you've been building over time.

Liz Weston: And there's a special risk for people who retire into a bear market — in other words, when the stock market is going down — because they might be selling those stocks and taking the shares out of the market, obviously, because they need the money. Those shares won't be there when the rebound inevitably happens. This is called a sequence of return risk, and what it basically boils down to is: If you are retiring when the market drops, you have a greater likelihood of running through your money — so running out of money before you run out of life — and that's not a good thing. You need another set of eyes, professional eyes, on your portfolio to make sure that you are protected against that. And just keep in mind, you've never retired before, but an experienced financial planner has helped many, many, many people retire, has seen many, many, many different types of stock markets, and can really help you get through what can be a pretty risky time.

Alana Benson: That's a really great point, Liz, and it's really important to talk to someone, like you said, get another set of eyes. But if you are mostly doing this yourself and you're not exactly sure how to tweak your strategy, one cool thing that you can do is look up the asset allocation that's used in target date funds. These are funds that are typically used in 401(k)s and they can help people with their retirement asset allocation because it changes over time depending on what your target date of retirement is. And asset allocation is just a fancy way of saying what proportion of your investment portfolio is in what type of investment, so maybe 70% of stocks and 30% bonds. That would be a higher risk allocation.

Liz Weston: Yeah. I'd still nudge people towards talking to a financial planner if they're within, say, five to 10 years of retirement, just because there's so many decisions that have to be made around this time, and allocations can vary quite a bit. If you’ve got a guaranteed source of income, like a very generous pension, for example, maybe you can take more risk. If you're in a position where you really don't have that much money, maybe you want to take even less risk, but a financial planner, once again, could really help guide you through this.

Sean Pyles: Okay, Alana, do you have any final thoughts for Michael or anyone else just thinking about when to sell their stock?

Alana Benson: Remembering the big picture, that this is money that you need to use to live off of, and really what Liz said, of talking with a financial planner. If you're not sure, this is really important money that's going to see you through a really important part of your life, and making sure that it's actually going to hold the value that you've worked so hard to ensure, it's honestly worth spending a little more money to talk with a professional to make sure that it's going to do everything it can for you.

Sean Pyles: All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your insights today.

Alana Benson: Yeah, happy to be here.

Sean Pyles: And with that, let's get onto our takeaway tips. And Liz, will you please start us off?

Liz Weston: With pleasure. First, know your strategy. Buy-and-hold is usually a better strategy than day trading, but you still need an exit plan.

Sean Pyles: Next up, consider your account options. Different accounts carry different tax implications, so research the account you're investing from just as carefully as you'd consider your actual investments.

Liz Weston: Finally, evolve as needed. It's okay to adjust your strategy as you get closer to your investment goal. If you need help, talk with a financial advisor.

Sean Pyles: And that is all we have for this episode. Do you have a money question of your own? Turn to the Nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at [email protected], and visit nerdwallet.com/podcast for more info on this episode. And remember to follow, rate and review us wherever you're getting this podcast. This episode was produced by Liz Weston and myself. Kaely Monahan edited our audio. Jae Bratton wrote our show notes. And a major thank you to the pros on the NerdWallet copy desk for all of their help.

Liz Weston: And here's our brief disclaimer, thoughtfully crafted by NerdWallet's legal team. Your questions are answered by knowledgeable and talented finance writers, but we are not financial or investment advisors. This Nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

Sean Pyles: And with that said, until next time, turn to the Nerds.